As we continue our tour of the neighborhood, I had to step back from my keyboard and take a deep breath and put on my thinking cap for a moment. (Do teachers still ask kids to do that today in school?)
You often hear it used in the movies, ‘he’s from the other side of the tracks’ ; most often when words like that describe someone or even a group of people, it has a negative connotation. It’s also used as an euphemism in novels; ‘They’re from the other side of town’.
Railroad tracks in rural towns are used to describe the actual cut-off to the so-called ‘socioeconomic’ status of family’s based on income, education, occupation, and social status in the neighborhood.
I received an intriguing e-mail about someone saying they ‘were from the wrong side of 9th avenue’.
I’m still trying to figure that one out.
Not once did I ever hear someone use that term in Windsor Terrace. If I recall, each side of 9th avenue had their fair share of good and bad people (but we forgive the bad people, don’t we?). Plus, we didn’t have any train tracks (but we did have the trolley car tracks)
Hopefully someone can chime in on this person’s description and enlighten me. Here is the e-mail.
I remember back when I was going to Brooklyn College I met a girl while waiting for the Coney Island Avenue bus. She told me she was from the neighborhood but she was a little older than I and I didn’t know her. Anyway, as she was relaying stories of her growing up in Windsor Terrace she said something that stayed with me…She referred to herself as being from “the wrong side of Ninth Ave?” I thought it an interesting concept. Kind of like being form the wrong side of the railroad tracks. Was there a “wrong side” ? Think about it….apparently to some people there was.
This blog entry can stir up some rather interesting debate amongst our fellow neighbors.
Was there a ‘wrong side’ of 9th avenue?
-SF
Hoops135@hotmail.com
CONTAINER DIARIES 
Alexander Batista said:
Actually, yes the “south side” from 9th to 8th, 7th, etc… was the wrong side. Don’t know why but having lived on 16th & 10th ave that just wasn’t were we went to hang out. We would go from Holy Name to Sherman St and p.s. 154 and maybe as far down to Mike Kelly’s basement (smoke some…) on the parkside, even the basketball courts on east 4th. st, but just not past 8th ave. Always told that was the bad side…go figure. Maybe becuase that was the largest two way ave that divided the neighborhood. To this day I don’t consider that Windsor Terrace.
Alex B
Helen Cole Prestia said:
I too, never heard that phrase growing up, only on tv, in books or the movies. Here in Jersey you hear that often. It’s usually from the people born and raised here but there aren’t many of them left. They have been chased out by us Bennys! Whatever that means, after being here 16 years i still don’t know what that’s all about. I’ve been carpooling with so many different kids over the years & I have heard so many names they kids from this side or that side of the tracks, we do have alot of train tracks in the area. I just laugh, it’s all the same to me. It’s the Burbs not the City.
Helen
Karen Artz said:
I never knew I grew up on the wrong side of the tracks. Never heard to expression in all my years in the Terrace. There are an awful lot of families who lived on the wrong side I guess.
Kenny Whelan said:
OK – I think there is always some kind of dividing lines in a neighborhood. I grew up on 8th avenue between Windsor and Prospect (1634 8th – next to Empire State Oil). My mother considered the other side of the track to be 7th avenue. She also really didn’t like us going to the 17th Street side of Prospect. Maybe the 9th avenue line was because 9th avenue was the “commercial” block where most of the stores were and made for a natural “track”.
Sharon said:
Kenny, I knew you brother Stephen, you were just a little guy. My brothers name was Bobby & we grew up next to Robin Ann on the other side of Empire. You bring back lots of memories
Paul Ramos (paulie) said:
Don’t forget all the cool people who lived on 16 st between 7th and 9th! I don’t believe we were on the wrong side of the tracks!
Don Leaver
Mugsy, never knew his real name!
John Hernandez
Michael Van tassel
Robert Moran
Pepe and Luis Fis
Karvounis brothers
All the Kawas’s
Maria and Danny Jederlinic
Fat Frankie
The Homans
Who else am I missing????? Help me out here folks!
Paul Ramos (paulie) said:
Oh, and don’t forget me.
Alexander Batista said:
Hey, Paulie I’ll give you Patty Kawas,she was hotttt, at least that’s how I remember her. But it’s was still the wrong side of the tracks (ave) LOL.
jim vackner said:
First of all all the Kawas girls were beautiful inside and out I agree with Kenny Whelan. For whatever reason, from 17 street and up was considered dangersous from 7th to 9th… I was right around the corner on Windsor. When I started playing ball with guys from there like Tommy & John Plantamura, I forgot all about it.
On Staten Island, the dividing line is Hylan Blvd. In
Jersey, it is route 35. In both cases below is bad…
in both cases far from true.
Mary Anne (Brick) Monaco said:
I grew up on 16th street between 8th and 9th avenues and moved to the apartment over L & J bakery and I never heard of there being a bad side of 9th ave. I had friends and family in both directions – It was all good!
Now I live below Rt 35 in Jersey and it just means I’m that much closer to the beach!!
Karen (Artz) Shanley said:
Paulie – How are u? Nice to see you on the blog. Where are u living now?
Carol Gogarty said:
I lived on Sixteenth Street between 8th and 9th Avenue. We lived in the apartment houses so we were on the wrong side of the street according to the single home owners on the other side of the street. They made it quite clear that we were not as good as they were. Constantly watching to see if we would do something wrong. I had a friend who lived over there. I knew that her mom just barely tolerated me. Probably thought I was a bad influence on her.
mike.v.t. said:
hey paulie there was alot of good people on 16th st and there still is we had alot of fun on 16th st i do not think of it has the wrong side i think of it has the right side of the tracks . like to say hi to all the good people on the blogand karen how are you doing.
jim vackner said:
Mary Ann,
I agree .. these boundaries are garbage. I grew up in a wood row house on Windsor Place bybet 7th and 8th.
I remember the fire department on out block alot because if someone smelt smoke, there was a fear that the whole block would go up (down? ) in flames.
I live one block below Hylan (25 years) and I remember years ago someone telling me I should not have bought there. I have great neighbors, near all the stores, and we all take care of our homes and look out for each other. I amy not get as much for my house if I lived above Hylan but I don’t care>
About 7 or 8 years ago, we were looking at a nice house about a block or two below Rt 35 near Middletown. I was looking there because my kids were teenagers and the I did not to pay 8 grand in real estate taxes while paying for college and I liked the idea of being near the water. Again, people were saying no’nt buy there.. The deal fell through but I am happy where I am. Jersy is nice but all the folks i Jersey and Long island that are closing in on retirement are fearful about the tax burden? What town are you in?
hoopscoach said:
Paulie,
Mugsy, wow! What a blast from the past! Last name was McGovern. Has a brother Jerry, good people!
I recall Mugsy walking on 9th avenue (the bad side) with his radio in one hand, container in the other. I think he had Sabbath on or something. We were outside Bob’s with a radio too and had some disco on.
Mugsy walked past us and said, “Boogie ’till ya puke!”
That phrase will be with me forever!
Paul Ramos said:
Hey Karen, I’ve been living the good life down in beautiful Raleigh, NC since 1995! How are thing with you? Still in Brooklyn?
Glenn Thomas said:
I did hear that remark a few times but I think it was referred or meant for a long way back in the 30’s and 40’s. That girl must have heard her parents or someone older using that line. The are going south of PPW or 9th Avenue as we call it going towards eighth avenue had and still does contain great families whether oldtimers or new to this day. I don’t think that this remark refers to the amilies of the 60’s or 70’s but for a much earlier era.
Karen (Artz) Shanley said:
Paulie – Glad to hear you are living the good life. I am in Long Island for the last 12 yrs. How are your kids? Why did u move to N.C.?
K.Molloy said:
My father grew up on 8 ave and 19st in one of the apartment buildings on 8 ave close to 19 street I forget the exact address right now. He grew up with Eddie Cush who was one of his best friends. My grandfather had died from TB when my father was about 4 yrs old during the depression in the 1930’s so they were dirt poor. He told me they were so poor sometimes he didn’t have enough to eat, when he would tell his mother he was hungry she told him to go to sleep and you won’t feel hungry anymore.
So anyhow he told me when he would look at the houses on Howard place back then he and his friends would say thats were the “Rich” people live. Maybe thats were this myth of the good and bad side of 9 ave came from. Dirt poor depression era kids dreaming of owning a house were the “rich” people lived. My mother grew up on 8 ave between Windsor and Prospect. So both of them lived on both sides of the avenue and never once did I hear them say anything about a good or bad side.
I know it was a big deal to my father when he finally bought that house at 37 Howard place not that he would ever say it or show any emotion about it. We were far from rich when we bought it but to someone who doesn’t have enough to eat money is relative as they say. Of course now at 1.3 million dad was right, it is were the “rich” people live:)
Man I’m getting awfully sentimental today ain’t I?
K.Molloy said:
And a shout out to the “boys” Mike V and Paulie glad to see you on the blog and doing well.
Mary Anne (Brick) Monaco said:
Hey Jim
I live in Manasquan N J Its real small town and in an odd way reminds me of growing up in the neighborhood I am
only here about 8 years but cant believe how many people I know here. They are very friendly and look out for each other. All that and the beach – not bad!
Larry Maloney said:
All I remember is that all the kids going to Holy Name from 10th ave/11th/etc side would walk up side of Prospect Ave closer to Holy Name – and all the kids going to the PS on 11th Ave would walk on the 17th st side of Prospect. Being on the “wrong” side meant you were looking for a fight…and that did happen occassionally.
Maureen Corrigan said:
As long as you were inside the Holy Name parish boundaries, you were in the right place. Although I had friends from St. Saviour’s and Immaculate Heart as well. Every kid thought his/her parish was the best.
I don’t recall any snobbery about where anyone lived back in the 40’s and 50’s.
Like Coach, I can take a mental walk up and down every street, avenue, place, court, and alley in the parish, and remember some wonderful family, classmate, or friend.
Helen Cole Prestia said:
Mary Ann,
I’m in Hazlet, NJ for 16 years now. Same small town thing here. There are so many people from Brooklyn here. It’s so funny how you can spot the brooklyn in people. Those were the ones I would gravitate towards. When my kids were younger they couldn’t understand how I knew so many people & which kids belonged to which parents. Now that they are older the understand with 3 kids in three different schools you meet alot of people while you are standing around waiting for them to get out of school.
Helen Cole Prestia
Maryann Brunton (now DeLuise) said:
I really don’t recall there being a right or wrong side of the avenue. I think that different groups of kids hung out in either 154 or Holy Name Schoolyard or someone’s stoop or an ally or the park side based on convenience to where they lived and whether or not that spot was already being used.
Each block had families with so many kids in them that you really didn’t have to go far from your own front door to have a whole gang of kids to hang out with.
When we were young we stayed on our block because on 16th between 10th & 11th we had very few cars parked on the block and the traffic coming down was light. So we could play in the street for hours… riding bikes, rolling skating, drawing with the big pieces of colored sidewalk chalk, (although, that always made one old lady on the block particularly MAD) and playing games such as mother may I, simon says, chinese school, tag, hide and go seek, hide the belt etc. and there were so many game you could play with a rubber ball. We were outside all day.
jim vackner said:
I guess my age group was the last to refer to his /her neighborhood by the Church you went to.. If someone
said they were from St. Thomas Aquanis, you knew they were down by 9 street..I berver said Windsor Terrace or Park Slope until I was about 17…
Kevin Maloney said:
Hi Ken,
Not sure if you remember me, I grew up in the house across from you. 1635 8th Ave. It really was a great place to live. I always remember some kind of game going on outside the Empire State Oli building. It was like a universal playing field. Football, basketball, wiffle ball. I remember all the kids that lived on the block. You could always find some kind of game going on any night of the summer. They were great times.
Rob Moran said:
If 16th street was on the wrong side of the tracks, then an awfull lots of folks from the right side loved to slum cause everyone liked to hang out on that block. We did not have much. But it surely was alot of fun growing up there.
Whats up Paulie and Mike ? You too Karen…….. nice to see everyone is doing good.
Ted "Action" Pardalos said:
Has anyone seen La La???????????????
Glenn T said:
For the record “Mugsy” is Mike McGovern of the famous McGovern family. He still lives on 16th Street between 8th and 7th Aves and still rides around on his bike! When I see him riding his bike its like your still in a time warp for he has been doing that forever and still looks the same. lol
Donald from 13th St. said:
An old friend turned me on to this website, does anybody remember my good friend Rudy K. ? I grew up on 13th street between 8th and 9th ave. spent many saturdays at sanders movie theater, saw many movies such as karate flicks and the exorcist etc… hung out in ps 107 school yard, sleigh riding at prospect park, then went to is88 john jay highschool, i remember slick and lala scared me to death, is sean riley did he used to hang out with bozo and kevin avlerizez who died on 8th ave sorry to say, i worked in C and S meat market on 7th ave and 8th street i used to deliver meat on the heavy bicycle. i also played football for st. savior church in early 70’s peewee league, does anybody remember the pool hall they opened on parkside circle?
Linda Scimeca said:
what happened to the people frm 8th ave and graudating class of 1973. i just found out that a classmaste from tha
year passed away named pat clark
Joe said:
Yea that was my Mom. She got stuck on that wrong side and was never able to find her way back.
Linda Scimeca said:
i would like to know what happene d to 1973 and graudation class of thatyear.
also all the 8th ave students. also i recently found out that pat clark has died a great loss.
Sharon said:
Linda, I can’t believe it, It’s Sharon your neighbor on 8th ave. If you ever get a chance Email me at SAL0830@aol.com to let me know how everyone is. I would love to talk to you. Brought my son to the old neighborhood in 2001 and he asked “where did you play, theres no yards”. I told him we played & had great times on the avenue
Doreen Kawas Conroy said:
Hi Linda,
How are you! ”YOU ROONEY GIRL”I posted a while ago ”CLASS OF 73” nothing .I met someone in staten island that told me about pat, very sad.Where are you living.I’m in Huguenot.
Barb said:
My family owned two houses on 16th Street between 10th and 11th Avenues from the mid-1950s on, and generations lived there. Wrong side of the tracks? I don’t remember anyone saying anything negative about other blocks, ever. As a kid in the 60s I took buses downtown, trains into Manhattan, bought joke books at Germain’s on 5th Avenue, walked to the libraries on 9th Street and Grand Army Plaza, and biked everywhere in the park (without anyone telling me I was going the “wrong way”), and we left our doors open until the end so that cousins and aunts could visit at will. Nice to be oblivious to these fine distinctions others make.
hoopscoach said:
Barb,
I hear ya. Good contribution. Hope you are well.
Mudge said:
THE RIGHT SIDE OF 9th. AVE. AND THE POORER SIDE WAS DIVIDED BY PROSPECT AVE. AS GROWING UP A JOKER OUR TURF WAS DIVEDED BY 11th. AVE. 9th.ST. 5th. AVE. AND23rd.ST. WE ROMED THERE ALL THREW THE 50 tys. I AM ALITTLE OLDER THEN MOST YOU WHO POST AND MANY OF THE NAMES IREAD ARE FAMILER HOW EVER THATS THE WAY IT WAS.
hoopscoach said:
Billy Mudge still kicking ass…